BBS Molds

[Jowiththeflow]

Dear fellow gear nerds,

while shapes are being discussed now and then, I did't find too many informations on molds.
So I hope you don't mind a newbie (former lurker) starting this thread.

I usually ride Polar 8,25s. Lately, due shortage and sales, I got a Frog, a DLX and a Passport. While the shapes and measurements didn't seem too far off, the kicks and concaves did.

Comparing to Polar I would say:
Frog: Steeper kicks (especially on the tail) , slightly less concave
DLX: Same kicks, slightly less concave
Passport: Slightly less kicks, significant less concave

BUT my highly scientific test procedure is: I stand on it.
AND I don't even know which roman numbers are hiding under the grip.

Can anyone give me some insight how the molds differ on bbs made brands?
Or is it more/only the press-position aka. roman nr.?
Or in my brain?

I'm mostly interested in 8,25" popsicles. Maybe up to 8,5", aswell.

So, feel free to share your experiences.

Thank you in advance!

[Woodshop]

I could probably talk way too much about this, so I will try to keep it fairly simple and short, at least for now.

DLX is the only brand out of BBS that uses the I to IV (1 to 4) which is the number in the stack, I (1) being the top and steepest with IV (4) being at the bottom and most mellow of the four.  Very rarely some of those boards have been used for other brands, I guess around the time of pandemic issues and flat out crazy times, but none before or after that to my knowledge - someone else on here said they had a couple, as well as some DLX boards not having the I to IV and were slightly different shapes / sizes to the normal boards too, as per one I had.

All BBS presses do four boards at a time, so although no other companies boards normally show the number system, half a dozen boards from the same brand with the same shape, dimensions, graphic can be significantly different in concave and feel or could also be almost exactly the same, but you don't know where they were in stacks, could all be tops, could be bottoms, could be mixed, etc.

The other thing I have noticed is not all the presses are made equally either, with some I would say being much more mellow than others, as from time to time I get the same size board that is significantly flatter all round than any others with the usual molds, both DLX and other companies, but it is more noticeable on DLX boards as per one I got recently with I on it but it was more mellow even than all the other IV boards I had presently.  I put this down to the fact that some of the bigger boards need way more mellow presses than the smaller boards, eg you couldn't have a 10" board coming out of the same press as an 8" board otherwise the bigger board would be so steep in the sides or the smaller board would be completely flat for the same amount of concave.  In this way, some of the very mellow boards might have been pressed on the "big board" molds. Then there are different lengths, so different presses are needed for those, eg 14" wb boards are not done on the same presses as the 15"+ wheelbases - four fingers of flat vs no fingers of flat, if that makes sense.


Of the different brands under BBS, some are more known for consistently steeper concave (FA / Hockey or Baker B2 boards) and some for consistenly mellow concave (Baker mellow OG) so it also makes sense that there would be certain molds for specific brands or groups of brands too, but not necessarily dedicated molds just for one company.

I would think that the majority of brands under BBS use the general pool of molds, determined by size of board and wheelbase, so as said there would still be some differences in concave and angle of kicks coming out at the same time, for the same boards.

This is why some manufacturers like Dwindle have gone specifically for the single press method to ensure every single board is exactly the same, every single time, as there were ongoing issues where some people were not happy with such a significant difference in what was supposed to be two identical boards.


Edit: 


* Feel free to correct me if I got any of that wrong - it is all just info I have picked up over the years, both from my own experiences and from others.

[Woodshop]

In response to specific brands, as you said this is pretty much how I have seen it:


Passport / Magenta are very flat across the concave with fairly normal kicks, not so much in the 8.5 sizes, but definitely in the 8.25 size, so it seems like all those "brown stain" companies use the same wood / same molds for everything.

Polar are always a bit more on the steeper concave, even the wider boards with short wheelbases but some of the bigger boards with longer wheelbases have been very much on the more mellow side.

DLX are a mixed bag, some shapes seem to always be steeper than others, eg the 8.25 shape is always steeper than the 8.38 sized boards, from lots of both that I have had, but as you said, are often more on the mellow side when compared to other brands.

Baker and Birdhouse have had fairly significant differences in concave with the same boards, but for the most part they are all still within the "mellow" ranges, when compared to Polar or other companies.


I don't have it, but the angle measuring app that friends use on all the boards they see more often come up with 21-23 degrees for noses and 19-21 for tails on BBS boards.

My most mellow has been 18 on the nose and 17 on the tail, which was very mellow.

To put it in perspective 15 degrees feels like a flat soggy mess, as per one of the flexed out old boards that just wouldn't break, but 23 degrees felt fairly normal, with some FA boards having 25 degrees kick if I was not mistaken, which was crazily steep, at least for me and a couple of others who had a go of that board.



Edit:


I haven't had or seen a Frog board in person, but heard they are pretty much middle of the road for BBS wood.


The 8.25 size does also seem like the best one to measure everything against, 8.38 often being a bit more mellow maybe because it usually has the longer wheelbase, but 8.5 are often more on the steep side, especially the shorter wheelbase versions, for DLX and some other brands that use the same shapes.

[Jowiththeflow]

@Woodshop: Thanks for all those details, much appreciated! This was exactly what I was looking for. The tendencies in the randomness, so to say?!

I didn't think of the app before, but it all makes perfect sense now:

Polar:  22° Nose, 22° Tail
DLX:   22° Nose, 21° Tail
Frog:  22° Nose, 23° Tail

Can't check the Passport, I already gave it away.

Oh yeah, and I'm referring to 14,25" wheelbases. (Old news: Polar's is actually 14,3ish; marked as 14,125.)


Edit: I tried to compare the concaves with a ruler and a caliper in the meantime:  (Yes, it is raining)

Polar: 9,9mm
DLX:  9,2mm
Frog:  8,8mm

WTF? How well are my feet calibrated!? How is that even noticeable, when it is quite a pain to measure!?

[Big Baby Jesus]

This is why I come to slap daily.

[typeischeap]

This is why I come to slap daily.

Seriously. Had my angle finder out this morning, lol. Interesting how radically different decks feel under your feet and then turn out to measure very similarly, a lot more going on than general carpentry...

[manysnakes]

I’ve said this before, but I really want someone like Schmitt or BBS to create a fully standardized system of deck measurement in Metric. I don’t even mean an industrial standard, although that would be ideal. Just something so those of us with calipers, angle finders, and rulers can quickly compare two skateboards.

[user18081971]

Do dwindle boards have steeper kicks than FA/Hockey?

[Roisto]

Someone here on Slap commented something on some thread that the DLX 8.62” is the smallest board in the bigger mold. Same one that is being used on the 9” AH orange eagle for example. Any truth to that? Would be interesting comparing all the bigger DLX boards and try to figure out if they use the same mold but are just shaped and drilled differently.

[Woodshop]

Someone here on Slap commented something on some thread that the DLX 8.62” is the smallest board in the bigger mold. Same one that is being used on the 9” AH orange eagle for example. Any truth to that? Would be interesting comparing all the bigger DLX boards and try to figure out if they use the same mold but are just shaped and drilled differently.

From @mattdlx so I am guessing Matt at DLX Dist (so would know interesting details like that).

The 8.63 is 14.75 wb so that is considered on the long side, which would feel similar in length before kicks to other bigger boards, but I can pull some out and compare (and take some pics if people are interested).

I know the smaller boards sit well inside the bigger boards, the whole middle flat to the board below, sort of like little spoon sitting in the big spoon, but if put the other way round, the bigger board sits well above the smaller one with only the tips of the kicks touching.

Probably easier with pics more so than metaphors, but that is why some people feel like their feet are too close together on shorter boards with shorter wheelbase / middle section, especially if they have been used to a wider stance on a longer board with longer wheelbase / middle section.

[Woodshop]

Do dwindle boards have steeper kicks than FA/Hockey?

FA / Hockey is steeper, but it is not quite as simple as just a number / angle.

Dwindle have significantly different concave to BBS boards, so it is sometimes hard to measure or compare differences, but the "steep kick" option (usually says it on the deck) are about 22 degrees on average, if I recall correctly from others measuring.

FA / Hockey can get up to 25 degrees, but is more like 22 to 23 on average, but they feel completely different to stand on.


BBS concave is spoon like, with no defined point where the middle kicks up at an angle, whereas Dwindle and many other brands have a quick angle point and a straight line kick from that point up to the tip, if that makes sense?

I can do up a simple pic if needed.

[user18081971]

Expand Quote

Do dwindle boards have steeper kicks than FA/Hockey?

[close]

FA / Hockey is steeper, but it is not quite as simple as just a number / angle.

Dwindle have significantly different concave to BBS boards, so it is sometimes hard to measure or compare differences, but the "steep kick" option (usually says it on the deck) are about 22 degrees on average, if I recall correctly from others measuring.

FA / Hockey can get up to 25 degrees, but is more like 22 to 23 on average, but they feel completely different to stand on.


BBS concave is spoon like, with no defined point where the middle kicks up at an angle, whereas Dwindle and many other brands have a quick angle point and a straight line kick from that point up to the tip, if that makes sense?

I can do up a simple pic if needed.

Thank you! Loved my Hockey so I'll probably really like a dwindle (maybe passport too) then. Would appreciate the pic, I really have not seen many dwindle boards bigger than 7.75

[LebowskisRug]

The BBS generic molds are the same for all the brands mentioned they just don’t have the Roman numerals on them so some will be a degree or two different depending on where they are in the press. I haven’t noticed a difference in any of mine ever.

[Woodshop]

When FA / Hockey first came out on BBS they were unlike any other BBS concave I have ever tried, so was actually doubting whether or not they were from BBS.

Someone else (cannot recall who, but an industry person I think) said they had to make steeper molds for the FA / Hockey boards, as well as generate different shapes to the many, many existing options they had in the shape catalog too.


If you ever have a board from Slave, then one from FA / Hockey, then a Polar, then maybe a DLX or something else like a Baker, there are significant differences between some of them, which would definitely indicate that there are separate / distinct presses used for the different companies.

[Woodshop]

Thank you! Loved my Hockey so I'll probably really like a dwindle (maybe passport too) then. Would appreciate the pic, I really have not seen many dwindle boards bigger than 7.75

Re pics - Working on it.  Actually took some this morning but they are so hard to see as it was a bit too dark still.


Also I guess it is down to what the local shops get in, but the majority of boards in all the shops, both local and online in Australia are bigger than 8, with 8.25 being the most common size.

Check out the Dwindle website for lots more info:

https://dwindle.com/


In particular the catalogs have all the relevant info, but I would do this on a computer, not a phone or small screen.

https://dwindle.com/catalogs


I also noticed in the most recent one they have "Full nose and tail" shown now, which might be a new thing, or might not.

Screen shot here, beside a normal board, also showing mellow concave option:

[IUTSM]

I'm skating a Real Full SE that was stamped with a 1 and it's money. I'd never known about the numerals. I've got the same shape with a 2 and 3 stamp on ice. I'm curious how they'll feel compared to this one.

[Woodshop]

Sorry posting too much, but I just did this in Paint, more as a show and tell:

[Mbrimson88]

I'm skating a Real Full SE that was stamped with a 1 and it's money. I'd never known about the numerals. I've got the same shape with a 2 and 3 stamp on ice. I'm curious how they'll feel compared to this one.

Just sit them on top of each other then swap them over and see if there is any difference, eg the 1 is steepest, 2 is not quite so, 3 is less, 4 is mellow overall.



If you have a look at the pics in this older post, you can see the differences as mentioned.

[Mr. Stinky]

I'm skating a Real Full SE that was stamped with a 1 and it's money. I'd never known about the numerals. I've got the same shape with a 2 and 3 stamp on ice. I'm curious how they'll feel compared to this one.

I usually come back to the the same shape (DLX 8.4x32) and I put Aces or Indys on Is, Thunders on IIs and IIIs, and Ventures on IVs. It sounds complicated, but it seems to preserve the basic pop feel/manual balance without affecting my flip tricks too much. I guess it depends on whether you value skating the same shape enough to switch up your trucks, but I’m old and ready to go upstate to that nice farm where all the old skateboarders go so it doesn’t bug me.

[LebowskisRug]

So there’s a few things being confused here:

BBS makes molds for many companies especially DLX and FA. Those shapes are unique to those brands.

BBS also makes a generic popsicle and a generic squared off shape. Alien and Habitat use the squared, Magenta, Theories, Passport, Sci Fi Fantasy, and a ton of other brands use the popsicle shape. It will measure almost identical on all of them and always have only a colored top and bottom ply.

[IUTSM]

Expand Quote

I'm skating a Real Full SE that was stamped with a 1 and it's money. I'd never known about the numerals. I've got the same shape with a 2 and 3 stamp on ice. I'm curious how they'll feel compared to this one.

[close]

I usually come back to the the same shape (DLX 8.4x32) and I put Aces or Indys on Is, Thunders on IIs and IIIs, and Ventures on IVs. It sounds complicated, but it seems to preserve the basic pop feel/manual balance without affecting my flip tricks too much. I guess it depends on whether you value skating the same shape enough to switch up your trucks, but I’m old and ready to go upstate to that nice farm where all the old skateboarders go so it doesn’t bug me.

this is prime time. 

I'm not sure if I care more about the feel of my trucks or the feel of the deck.

[Woodshop]

Expand Quote

I'm skating a Real Full SE that was stamped with a 1 and it's money. I'd never known about the numerals. I've got the same shape with a 2 and 3 stamp on ice. I'm curious how they'll feel compared to this one.

[close]

I usually come back to the the same shape (DLX 8.4x32) and I put Aces or Indys on Is, Thunders on IIs and IIIs, and Ventures on IVs. It sounds complicated, but it seems to preserve the basic pop feel/manual balance without affecting my flip tricks too much. I guess it depends on whether you value skating the same shape enough to switch up your trucks, but I’m old and ready to go upstate to that nice farm where all the old skateboarders go so it doesn’t bug me.

Ha yeah that is awesome!

The board does feel different with the different concave, so I can understand the different trucks to accommodate the feel of a steeper or more mellow board.


I know others put trucks on boards often based on wheelbase, eg Ventures on shorter wheelbase, Indy on longer wheelbase, etc.

[mattchew]

Expand Quote

I'm skating a Real Full SE that was stamped with a 1 and it's money. I'd never known about the numerals. I've got the same shape with a 2 and 3 stamp on ice. I'm curious how they'll feel compared to this one.

[close]

Just sit them on top of each other then swap them over and see if there is any difference, eg the 1 is steepest, 2 is not quite so, 3 is less, 4 is mellow overall.



If you have a look at the pics in this older post, you can see the differences as mentioned.

This is a great thread and this post was absolutely fascinating to me.

[fs1/2cab]

I’ve said this before, but I really want someone like Schmitt or BBS to create a fully standardized system of deck measurement in Metric. I don’t even mean an industrial standard, although that would be ideal. Just something so those of us with calipers, angle finders, and rulers can quickly compare two skateboards.

This! So much this! I only trust a handful of people when it comes to accurate deck measurements.

Major shoutout to all the pals. And to Olli from No Comply Skateshop, check the site and support them.
https://no-comply.de/

[greenreese]

These two 8.5x31.85x14.25 Antihero decks are identical, even the same graphic and top stain, except the left is a 1 and the right is a 4.  This is tail to tail.  To me this is really noticeable when you set it up, it's a big difference.

The bottom pic also illustrates the "spoon" concave on the kicks. 

[Woodshop]

These two 8.5x31.85x14.25 Antihero decks are identical, even the same graphic and top stain, except the left is a 1 and the right is a 4.  This is tail to tail.  To me this is really noticeable when you set it up, it's a big difference.

The bottom pic also illustrates the "spoon" concave on the kicks. 

Yeah that second pic is really good.

The difference is so slight, but also so noticeable in the end ranges, not as much in the middle or just one up or down, but still always there.

[Mr. Stinky]

Expand Quote

Expand Quote

I'm skating a Real Full SE that was stamped with a 1 and it's money. I'd never known about the numerals. I've got the same shape with a 2 and 3 stamp on ice. I'm curious how they'll feel compared to this one.

[close]

I usually come back to the the same shape (DLX 8.4x32) and I put Aces or Indys on Is, Thunders on IIs and IIIs, and Ventures on IVs. It sounds complicated, but it seems to preserve the basic pop feel/manual balance without affecting my flip tricks too much. I guess it depends on whether you value skating the same shape enough to switch up your trucks, but I’m old and ready to go upstate to that nice farm where all the old skateboarders go so it doesn’t bug me.

[close]

Ha yeah that is awesome!

The board does feel different with the different concave, so I can understand the different trucks to accommodate the feel of a steeper or more mellow board.


I know others put trucks on boards often based on wheelbase, eg Ventures on shorter wheelbase, Indy on longer wheelbase, etc.

I’m of the mind that different measurements affect people differently so that some people might not feel a bump up in wheelbase by switching tricks nearly as much as a change in concave steepness, or vice versa. I can’t do big changes in wheelbase on my deck basically at all—14.25” or less, no matter what—but switching trucks doesn’t seem to bother me nearly as much. There’s a lot going on with how concave, wheelbase, tail and nose length, and truck geometry all play off each other; not sure there can be a  magic formula with that many variables, so I just go off of what works, which also sounds completely insane now that I think about it.

[Woodshop]

...which also sounds completely insane now that I think about it.

No it is actually the opposite.

Insanity is chaos.  This is exactly measured logic.

But of course my logic could be called insanity by someone else, so it is all relative.


Do you have a preference, if you did have to choose, which combo would you have as a "For ever after" setup?

Or do you enjoy the differences between each setup enough to keep a constant change going on?

[Woodshop]

 It will measure almost identical on all of them and always have only a colored top and bottom ply.

There are still some significant differences, small as they may be between many of those brands, in both size and shapes, different wheelbases, lengths of kicks and all that kind of thing, but there are also some of the same shapes across many brands, eg the 8.38 x 32.25 with 14.5 wb is used by DLX, Baker, DGK and a number of other brands, but then others like Polar are different in their 8.38 boards, which are also different to Passport 8.38 decks - all of those I have here and have compared in detail.

One of the more common things is also a middle coloured layer, maybe more for certain brands, or even for certain runs of boards too, with some having two top, one bottom, some having one top, one bottom, some having one top, one middle and some having one top, one middle and one bottom.

See pic for close up of a few assorted BBS brands.

[Mr. Stinky]

Expand Quote

...which also sounds completely insane now that I think about it.

[close]

No it is actually the opposite.

Insanity is chaos.  This is exactly measured logic.

But of course my logic could be called insanity by someone else, so it is all relative.


Do you have a preference, if you did have to choose, which combo would you have as a "For ever after" setup?

Or do you enjoy the differences between each setup enough to keep a constant change going on?

I do enjoy a change, but the DLX 8.4x32 (II or III), Thunder hollow light 149s, 54mm radial slims would be the closest to a permanent main squeeze. I tried to run that as much as I could last year and made tons of progress learning tricks before I detonated my kneecap. It still feels right, but I’m just barely getting back on the board and I’m going through a bit of madness to see what gear might make skating feel a little easier for now. I’ll be back to that setup once this passes, with maybe two others I don’t ride so much just for variety.