post your religion and why

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

People who are so anti-religion are usually just anti religious establishment and are not sure of the difference, at least from my experience.  Religion per se is really helpful for a lot of people, but when it is tainted by people who start to use fascist ideology to push their agenda or their beliefs then the value of religion is completely lost.  I intensely dislike organized religion for the most part, but I find nearly all religions have merit and value to people who use the basic principles as a guideline to living a better life.

I think that many of the teachings of the different religions are often wise, though none has it all right on any standard. Its dogma and prostylezation or however you spell it that are a problem.

[bentmode]

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God is real.
Jesus is real.
I don't really know why I truely believe this but ever since I was really small I've had this strong feeling.  Kook me if you want.  But something is out there and it truely is bigger than we all think. : \

[close]

Here's an example of the brainwashing i mentioned.  hate to bring the bad news, but theres nothing out there but star dust and interstellar debri. Oh and the moon.

And if im wrong, have this god of yours focus my account right now....

no sun you say, no marz? show me the proof dawggie.

[grimcity]

I havent been brainwashed.....Like I said I have this feeling.

Nobody can deny you that. If you're feeling it and it works for you, roll with it.

I've had physical experiences with god.  I've felt crazy energy.  I know it sound regular but I'm just being real.   If I hadnt felt this type of incident before then I dont think I would believe in this.  You don't have to agree I just am sharing my experience.

This is personal for you and a pretty sensitive topic, I sincerely don't mean to offend you, but if someone approached you and said that they had had a real, physical experience with... let's say a unicorn made out of unearthly energy... you'd probably think that they're experiencing some schizophrenia, wouldn't you? What's the difference? A lot of people experience things that they perceive to be very real, it's excused when it's religious, but when it's not, it's considered a chemical imbalance or some sort of misfiring in the brain.
I'm not calling you crazy, I'm just saying that it seems like it's ok for people to think their god talks to them, but if someone thinks they're getting alien signals in their tooth fillings, they're nuts. What's the difference?

Regardless, religion aside.  Theres no way in hell that all of this entire universe just magically poofed into existance.

According to the data we have, the universe started off and continues through a series of completely natural processes.
Anyway, the natural model of the beginning of the universe doesn't claim that it was "poofed" into existence, it states that a point of singularity expanded rapidly, distributing mass, matter, gravity, and eventually light as it cooled and the physics it's all bound by contributed to the levels of complexity we see today.

On the other hand, it's certain fundamentalist religious thought that claim we were "poofed" into existence. Stellar evolution took billions of years, not a "poof."

Even if it did poof,who made the poof?

Why must it be a "who?" Your presupposition that it must have been based on a "who" limits the scope you're willing to look through.
If your god is real, who made him? If you don't think a generally non-thinking universe can't exist without the assistance of a creator, then surely an intelligent being must be required to create another intelligent being?

Saying the universe came to existance by accident is like having every little piece needed to make a watch.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
The universe wasn't an accident, it just was. It's something that happened, and for all we know was an inevitability that may very well happen over and over again (either to this universe or to other universes that exist in mathematical/M-Theory universe models).

Your watch analogy is flawed from the start... with a watch, elements are turned into substances which are turned into textiles, which are machined and fabricated, which are assembled... with the goal of building a watch.
Physics doesn't build watches by itself, and evolution (stellar and biological) has no predetermined goal. Within the confines of physics as we know it (outside of Quantum), we see that complexity randomly arises from simplicity over millions and billions of years in a somewhat predictable fashion.

However, if a four billion year old watch is ever found inside a meteorite I'll be the first to step up and take my licks for being wrong.

Then throwing the watch and in mid air it magically comes together and not only functions but has the right time and date.  It just doesn't match up.  Its scientifically impossible. 

Yes, your scenario is entirely and completely scientifically impossible. Science doesn't deal with magic, and I don't think you know enough about what you don't believe in to correctly knock it.

How old do you think the universe is?

[loophole]

speaking of bertrand's teapot theory earlier, funny story-
as a kid ive always had the opportunity to travel a lot and to really quite remote places and see many different cultures (and subsequently religions and superstitions). but with one later school trip, i remember encountering a rather peculiar spiritual routine, my fellow classmate, a catholic, noted how crazy it seemed. i asked him how it was different to his, and he said "well, mine doesn't have 10 followers." even though i was at the precious age of 12, his folly was quite clear.

i think travelling really lets people realise the amount of weirdoness there is in this world in terms of religion, how many different beliefs, gods, and superstitions there are, and when they see them and apply the knowledge to their own life, it makes their own religion seem like just another one on the list. how is theirs true over the others? as a believer, one must stay firm and claim: "I must stay faithful, and due to my strongest possible faith, there cannot be a different god! for I believe so strongly." but then that person must realise that this exact same virtue is present in so many peoples with different religions, and it then becomes clear that these feelings and emotions of religious salvation are merely psychological effects from the ecstasy that is the illusion of religion.

don't get me wrong, ecstasy can be fun.

but when you think that putting a bible over your erect dick is going to stop you from getting aids over a condom, the joke really isn't very funny anymore.

[damian]

i used to go to church on sundays, for my dad and the after church lunch. the youth group would put on performances, and this little gay kid would continuously kill it. after a show one morning, i remember the topic of study was god's disapproval for homosexuality and those who'll be scorned. i thought that was fucked up. he was one bummed azn. i couldn't help but laugh though. if you're destined to follow the path your loving god chose for you, he signed you up for hell already. i was already over church thanks to science books & carl sagan 'cosmos', at this point, but that reassured me.

religion is usually the root for worldly conflicts/issues.
i can understand diety of the sun/animals being worshiped though;  spiritually is deciphered differently.

[Sarmiento Subs]

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People who are so anti-religion are usually just anti religious establishment and are not sure of the difference, at least from my experience.  Religion per se is really helpful for a lot of people, but when it is tainted by people who start to use fascist ideology to push their agenda or their beliefs then the value of religion is completely lost.  I intensely dislike organized religion for the most part, but I find nearly all religions have merit and value to people who use the basic principles as a guideline to living a better life.

[close]

I think that many of the teachings of the different religions are often wise, though none has it all right on any standard. Its dogma and prostylezation or however you spell it that are a problem.

really good post, im real glad this topic is still kickin, ive been trying to not post much but im glad its still doing good

[Wood Pusher]

Is there a reason why "god" gives special treatment to humans and not other species of animals? And if god is against homosexuality, why would he create homosexuals? Why would he make it so that people sin and go against his will? Why was "god" so involved with mankind at the beginning times but hasn't even done any of his magical things and floods during more recent times? Why would god create so many regions of people who believe in completely different religions? Why does he make all these "sinners" doomed from the start?

And I would love some answers from some religious folk

[Wood Pusher]

And if there is a god, why would he wait millions of yours to gain some legitimate followers (the jews)? Why would the creator of the Universe be fine with the paleolithic people worshiping their native gods? Wouldn't he had made it so that everyone was a follower from the get-go? I'm pretty sure there was no concept of worshipingJehovah (the christian and jewish god) until sometime in 1400 BC.

[loophole]

Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion.


-charlie chaplin

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

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I havent been brainwashed.....Like I said I have this feeling.

[close]

Nobody can deny you that. If you're feeling it and it works for you, roll with it.

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I've had physical experiences with god.  I've felt crazy energy.  I know it sound regular but I'm just being real.   If I hadnt felt this type of incident before then I dont think I would believe in this.  You don't have to agree I just am sharing my experience.

[close]

This is personal for you and a pretty sensitive topic, I sincerely don't mean to offend you, but if someone approached you and said that they had had a real, physical experience with... let's say a unicorn made out of unearthly energy... you'd probably think that they're experiencing some schizophrenia, wouldn't you? What's the difference? A lot of people experience things that they perceive to be very real, it's excused when it's religious, but when it's not, it's considered a chemical imbalance or some sort of misfiring in the brain.
I'm not calling you crazy, I'm just saying that it seems like it's ok for people to think their god talks to them, but if someone thinks they're getting alien signals in their tooth fillings, they're nuts. What's the difference?

Expand Quote

Regardless, religion aside.  Theres no way in hell that all of this entire universe just magically poofed into existance.

[close]

According to the data we have, the universe started off and continues through a series of completely natural processes.
Anyway, the natural model of the beginning of the universe doesn't claim that it was "poofed" into existence, it states that a point of singularity expanded rapidly, distributing mass, matter, gravity, and eventually light as it cooled and the physics it's all bound by contributed to the levels of complexity we see today.

On the other hand, it's certain fundamentalist religious thought that claim we were "poofed" into existence. Stellar evolution took billions of years, not a "poof."

Expand Quote

Even if it did poof,who made the poof?

[close]

Why must it be a "who?" Your presupposition that it must have been based on a "who" limits the scope you're willing to look through.
If your god is real, who made him? If you don't think a generally non-thinking universe can't exist without the assistance of a creator, then surely an intelligent being must be required to create another intelligent being?

Expand Quote

Saying the universe came to existance by accident is like having every little piece needed to make a watch.

[close]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
The universe wasn't an accident, it just was. It's something that happened, and for all we know was an inevitability that may very well happen over and over again (either to this universe or to other universes that exist in mathematical/M-Theory universe models).

Your watch analogy is flawed from the start... with a watch, elements are turned into substances which are turned into textiles, which are machined and fabricated, which are assembled... with the goal of building a watch.
Physics doesn't build watches by itself, and evolution (stellar and biological) has no predetermined goal. Within the confines of physics as we know it (outside of Quantum), we see that complexity randomly arises from simplicity over millions and billions of years in a somewhat predictable fashion.

However, if a four billion year old watch is ever found inside a meteorite I'll be the first to step up and take my licks for being wrong.

Expand Quote

Then throwing the watch and in mid air it magically comes together and not only functions but has the right time and date.  It just doesn't match up.  Its scientifically impossible. 

[close]

Yes, your scenario is entirely and completely scientifically impossible. Science doesn't deal with magic, and I don't think you know enough about what you don't believe in to correctly knock it.

How old do you think the universe is?

The problem with the thought of "The universe couldn't have just come out of nowhere" line of thinking is that by saying god created it, you are just adding an additional step to the unanswerable question of where everything came from. I don't get why those who want to know where everything began are satisfied with the answer of "God."
The idea that the Universe MUST have been created, because it couldn't have come from nowhere, while God just was, and did come from nowhere confuses the hell out of me. How does that pass through a logical person's head and not ring a lot of bs alarms. I mean, how is it that one thing couldn't have come from nothing, while another could.

[istayhigh]

 oh religion.

[grimcity]

I'm not a believer, but I think I can play Devil's advocate and give you the lines I would have given as a believer on these (I'll answer as if I'm Christian with a semi-fundamentalist Biblical interpretation):

Is there a reason why "god" gives special treatment to humans and not other species of animals?

God doesn't give a reason, but he decided to create man in his own image... some take that to mean that man is like God in regards to the spiritual nature of man. Because of this, God gave man dominion over all of his creation.

And if god is against homosexuality, why would he create homosexuals?

God didn't make the gheys, they're an after effect of original sin.
Basically, God's initial creation was perfect and without sin, but once Lucifer helped lead Eve into sinning, sin had a negative effect on everything. Sin, mixed in with creation, devolved God's creation and continues to do so.  People in the Bible reportedly lived for hundreds of years, whereas now we're lucky if we can get to (or close to) ten decades old. It was at this time that nudity became something to be ashamed of (or at least modest about), and it was probably around the time that carnivores diverged from creation and started eating other animals. The point and time that all animals were vegetarians is known as the original "age of innocence."

Why would he make it so that people sin and go against his will?

Free will was one of the first things he allowed man to have. Also, Eve was baited by Lucifer... who then baited Adam.

Why was "god" so involved with mankind at the beginning times but hasn't even done any of his magical things and floods during more recent times?

That was before God came to Earth as a man, basically redrawing his contract with humanity, making it easier for his creation to get into Heaven. At the same time, God became forgiving, partially because he knew firsthand what mankind was enduring under original sin.

Why would god create so many regions of people who believe in completely different religions?

Partially, that stems back from God's allowance of free will, and regionally, the resulting infidels are products of what happened with the sinners of the Tower of Babel.

Why does he make all these "sinners" doomed from the start?

Technically speaking, babies and kids (innocents) would go to Heaven if they passed away. Jeremiah 1 talks about people being sanctified before they're born, so they get a free pass.
Having said that, we're born into a world of original sin, so when you reach the age of reason, you should do away with parts of your reasoning and have faith. So basically, sinners aren't doomed from the start, but they doom themselves even though God knows they're doomed to begin with (if they were raised in a non Christian country or something).

And if there is a god, why would he wait millions of yours to gain some legitimate followers (the jews)?

Ah, but God was directly involved with all sorts of people before the Jews... right from the very beginning with Adam, Eve, Cain, Able, and down the list . Then he went off and destroyed everyone that was alive that didn't believe, because they really, really should have.

However, God did leave a rainbow declaring a new contract with man, which was kind've an interim contract that lasted until he came to earth as a human, which may not make a lot of sense, but God is into contractual obligation.

Why would the creator of the Universe be fine with the paleolithic people worshiping their native gods?

He's not fine with it! God was a jealous God since the Old Testament, and even God-as-Jesus told everyone "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." So you either believe or spend an eternity in either the Lake of Fire or just without the presence of God at all (that part's not entirely clear).

Wouldn't he had made it so that everyone was a follower from the get-go?

That's probably how it was before Eve screwed it up for everyone.

I'm pretty sure there was no concept of worshiping Jehovah (the christian and jewish god) until sometime in 1400 BC.

Historically, you're probably right, but the Biblical timeline is much different from your secular history books.

/end Devil's advocate mode

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

That damn tower of babel!

But grim, I heard that kids would go to hell because their parents fucked to make them, and therefore we were all born in sin, aside from Jesus, who's mom didn't fuck to make him. Isn't that why kids go to jesus camp?

[Wood Pusher]

Thanks got answering Grim!

That damn tower of babel!

But grim, I heard that kids would go to hell because their parents fucked to make them, and therefore we were all born in sin, aside from Jesus, who's mom didn't fuck to make him. Isn't that why kids go to jesus camp?

Kids will only be doomed to hell from the get-go if their parents had them before marriage or didn't baptize them.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

so baptizing cleans the fuck off of you? Is that why church is on sunday?

[grimcity]

That damn tower of babel!

But grim, I heard that kids would go to hell because their parents fucked to make them, and therefore we were all born in sin, aside from Jesus, who's mom didn't fuck to make him. Isn't that why kids go to jesus camp?

I'm pretty sure the infant sanctity clause works as a suitable loophole to override the fucker/sinner going-to-Heaven requirements.
Oh, also "Grace" in some denominations can override that and all kinds of stuff, but even that gets changed up depending on the denomination.

The thing is, there are (at a minimum) 20,000+ denominations (including the big ones and sub ones), and possibly over 40,000+, so it's all about who you ask!

[Prison Wallet]

Grace is a pretty radical concept, even in this day and age. It goes against human nature and social order; imagine that concept 2000 years ago.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

What exactly is grace?

[grimcity]

What exactly is grace?

It's a cross between a promise of peace and a hall pass, or a get out of jail free card. It all depends on the denomination.

Grace is a pretty radical concept, even in this day and age. It goes against human nature and social order; imagine that concept 2000 years ago.

The Old Testament popularized the concept of "Grace" by name several times, but I think the idea predates Christianity by a few hundred years.

[Ronald Wilson Reagan]

You are a computer guy right? How do you know so much random shit?

[grimcity]

When I was a Christian, I wasn't flaming, but I was a geek about it. I sincerely debated on Christianity's behalf several times, and a lot of those debates got me thinking about things.

As far as other random things, that's just because I'm a spaz.

[loophole]

You're also the Grimcity.

[Prison Wallet]

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What exactly is grace?

[close]

It's a cross between a promise of peace and a hall pass, or a get out of jail free card. It all depends on the denomination.

Expand Quote

Grace is a pretty radical concept, even in this day and age. It goes against human nature and social order; imagine that concept 2000 years ago.

[close]

The Old Testament popularized the concept of "Grace" by name several times, but I think the idea predates Christianity by a few hundred years.

In my mind the concept of grace is kind of summed up in the "if someone strikes you on the left cheek turn and offer then the left" teaching, but the person being stricken is in a position of power.

Are you sure the Old Testament popularized grace? In my mind the Old Testament was God's law, an eye for an eye. Salvation through obedience to Jewish law.

Then with the New Testament Jesus brought a new law, the law of grace. Salvation through God's love, with Old Testament law taking a backseat.

I'm no biblical scholar, that's just how my understanding's constructed.

[grimcity]

Oh yeah, starting in Genesis when God graces Noah and his family with the flood alert, Jonah being graced by getting vomited out of a "big fish," it's brought up by name in Psalms, and most prominently in Numbers:
6:24 - 26
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make His face shine upon you, and be gracious to you;
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace.

Would any actual Christians like to take over now?

[wake and bacon]

hook, line, and sinker grim!!

[Sarmiento Subs]

Grim = best SLAP poster

when people show they have knowledge on both sides of an argument their opinion becomes of worth, grim you have a very worthy opinion, and no i dont mean that everything you say is opinion not fact, you know what i mean, your opinion and point of view and perspective is worthwhile and proves to based less on personal biased which always makes me enjoying discussing things with someone

[Prison Wallet]

Oh yeah, starting in Genesis when God graces Noah and his family with the flood alert, Jonah being graced by getting vomited out of a "big fish," it's brought up by name in Psalms, and most prominently in Numbers:
6:24 - 26
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make His face shine upon you, and be gracious to you;
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace.

Would any actual Christians like to take over now?

Sure there's some grace here and there but I really think the spirit of the Old Testament is Law. And your examples are flawed. Noah and his family were spared because they were righteous, the world was drowned because is was evil. That's not grace, that's vengence.

Noah was thrown overboard and spent 3 days in the fish 'cause he didn't go where God wanted him to go. God punished him and he complied. That's not really grace either.  

The Old Testament is full of stories of God punishing folks. Cain, Sodom/Gommorah, The Egyptians/Pharroh, Moses, Sampson, Jacob...

I still think the spirit of the Old Testament is Law and the New Testament grace.

[grimcity]

Sure, the OT is full of law, but you mentioned the concept of grace, so that's what I was addressing.

"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." - Gen 6:8

[Prison Wallet]

Sure, the OT is full of law, but you mentioned the concept of grace, so that's what I was addressing.

"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." - Gen 6:8

You're reverting to your fundamental Christian debate methods--pulling out isolated quotes and not looking at the big picture. I'm not going to google "God's law" to pull verses backing my views--I'm saying the spirit of the Old Testament is Law and I think it's pretty accurate.

And how did Noah find grace in God's eyes? Obeying the law. Why was the world drowned out? Not obeying. A key word search of the Old Test for the term "grace" isn't very convincing.

Contrast that with Jesus serving communion to Judas at the last supper after Judas sold him out. In my mind there's a pretty distinct paradigm shift from Old Test to New.

[grimcity]

I never said there wasn't a paradigm shift, it was a whole new contract via God incarnate.

But yes, I reverted to fundamentalist debate tactics because there's no way to debate it otherwise (except for the Psalms and Numbers references). There's still plenty of grace in the OT, but like I said, the definition of grace is dependent on the denomination you're talking about. I gladly accept your interpretation just as much as mine. I'm definitely not going to defend something I don't believe in.